Odziv na prispevek Andreja Goloba

JORDANES- Venedos, Venetos, Vindos Seo Sclavos

JORDANES- Venedos, Venetos, Vindos Seo Sclavos

Florin Curta, medievalist in arheolog, v svoji knjigi The Making of the Slavs podaja kritične ugotovitve, ki bi lahko bile nov standard za nadaljne raziskave Slovanov. V svojem delu med drugim tudi kritično obdela koncept migracije v zgodnjem srednjem veku.
Citirati pa velja predvsem naslednje odlomke:
»Our present day knowledge of the origin of the Slavs is, to a large extent, a legacy of the 19th century. A scholarly endeavor inextricably _link_ed with forging national identities /…/«
»Naše sedanje poznavanje izvora Slovanov je v veliki meri zapuščina 19. stoletja. Prizadevanje učenjakov /je/ zapleteno povezano s ponarejevanjem narodnih identitet / …/.«
»Instead of a great flood of Slavs coming out of the Pripet marshes, I envisage a form of group identity which could arguably be called ethnicity and emerged in response to Justinian’s implementation of a building project on the Danube frontier and in the Balkans. The Slavs, in other words, did not come from the north, but became Slavs only in contact with the Roman frontier.«
»Namesto velike poplave Slovanov, prihajajočih iz Pripjatskih močvar, si predstavljam obliko skupinske identitete, ki je ne moremo nesporno imenovati etnija, in se je pojavila v odgovor na Justinijanovo izvršbo gradbenega projekta na meji z Donavo in na Balkanu. Z drugimi besedami Slovani niso prišli iz severa, ampak so Slovani postali šele ob stiku z Rimsko mejo.«
Ne dvomi pa tudi v del Jordanesovega poročila, ko (vsaj za baltske Venete) pravi: »Archeological research has already provided an enormous amount of evidence in support of the idea that the Venethi were Slavs.«
»Arheološke raziskave so priskrbele že velikansko količino dokazov v podkrepitev ideje, da so Venethi bili Slovani.«

Florin Curta, medievalist in arheolog, v svoji knjigi The Making of the Slavs podaja kritične ugotovitve, ki bi lahko bile nov standard za nadaljne raziskave Slovanov. V svojem delu med drugim tudi kritično obdela koncept migracije v zgodnjem srednjem veku.
Citirati pa velja predvsem naslednje odlomke:
»Our present day knowledge of the origin of the Slavs is, to a large extent, a legacy of the 19th century. A scholarly endeavor inextricably _link_ed with forging national identities /…/«
»Naše sedanje poznavanje izvora Slovanov je v veliki meri zapuščina 19. stoletja. Prizadevanje učenjakov /je/ zapleteno povezano s ponarejevanjem narodnih identitet / …/.«
»Instead of a great flood of Slavs coming out of the Pripet marshes, I envisage a form of group identity which could arguably be called ethnicity and emerged in response to Justinian’s implementation of a building project on the Danube frontier and in the Balkans. The Slavs, in other words, did not come from the north, but became Slavs only in contact with the Roman frontier.«
»Namesto velike poplave Slovanov, prihajajočih iz Pripjatskih močvar, si predstavljam obliko skupinske identitete, ki je ne moremo nesporno imenovati etnija, in se je pojavila v odgovor na Justinijanovo izvršbo gradbenega projekta na meji z Donavo in na Balkanu. Z drugimi besedami Slovani niso prišli iz severa, ampak so Slovani postali šele ob stiku z Rimsko mejo.«
Ne dvomi pa tudi v del Jordanesovega poročila, ko (vsaj za baltske Venete) pravi: »Archeological research has already provided an enormous amount of evidence in support of the idea that the Venethi were Slavs.«
»Arheološke raziskave so priskrbele že velikansko količino dokazov v podkrepitev ideje, da so Venethi bili Slovani.«

HISTORICAL QUOTES
Homer (9th century B. C.) records in Iliad[1] the Veneti in Paphlagonia as Enetoi (the Greek did not know the letter v).
Herodotus, historian (5th century B. C.), writes about Illyrian Veneti, about Veneti living around the lower stream of the Danube, and finally about Veneti inhabiting the Northern Adriatic territory.[2]
Polibus (2th century B. C.) added to the description of events during the years 219 to 146 B. C., following: »The land to the Adriatic coast was mastered by another, very old folk, named Veneti … They speak a different language as the Celts, but what their habbits and their clothing is concearned, they differ from them only slightly /…/ Veneti and Gonomani were persuaded by Roman representatives, to join the Romans«.[3]
Demetrius of Scepsis, grammarian, archeologist (2nd century B. C.), mentions the capital of the Veneti (Enea) in Troas (Asia Minor).[4]
Strabo, historian, geographer (1st century B. C.), designates the (V)eneti in Paphlagonia as the major tribe moving towards Thrace (nowadays territory of Bulgaria) after the fall of Troy (Asia Minor).[5]
Julius Caesar, historian (1st century B. C.), reports about the Veneti living in Gaul (Brittany).[6]
Titus Livy, historian (1st century B. C.), describes how Veneti came up to the coasts of the (northern) Adriatic, also mentioning the river “Timava”, which flows through the duskiness of the Škocjan caves (Slovene Ti(e)ma means the darkness).[7]
Pliny the Elder (1st century B. C.) talks about an extensive land, named Eningia, where Sarmatians, Venedi, etc. lived. He also mentions the Venetulani in central Italy.[8]
Tacitus, historian (1st century C. E.), places Veneti on the border of Suebia together with Peucinians, Sarmatians and Fenns.[9]
Ptolemy, geographer (2nd century), mentions exceedingly large nations – the (O)venedi on the whole coastal region of the Venetic gulf (The Baltic sea).[10]
Emperor Julian (4th century) presents evidence of Veneti, who settled in the proximity of Aquilea (Italy).[11]
Jordanes, historian (6th century), notes a numerous nation of Veneti, populating the area between north of Dacia (now Romania) and up to the Visla delta (the Baltic sea), who call themselves Slavs and Ants. (»termini Venetorum qui et Sclavi dicuntur.«)[12]
In Vita s. Columbani[13] (7th century) (the Alpine) Veneti, who call themselves Slavs, are recorded.
In the Fredegarius Chronicle (7th century) we can read about the Slavs designated as Vinedi.[14]
Adam of Bremen, chronicler (11th century), mentions an extensive land Sclavania, settled by Winulians, who used to be called Vandals. The land could have been ten times bigger then Sachsen, especially if we include Bohemians (Czechs) and Polians, since they are not distinguishable from each other, nor by their appearance, or by their language.[15]
In Denmark (from latest 12th century and until the year 1972) the title “King of the Vends” (Latin Vandals) was used for enthroning Danish kings.
Helmold, historian (12th century), records a vast Slavic country, where the ancient Vandals are now named Wends or Winulians.[16]
Wincenty Kadłubek / Vincent of Cracow, historian (12th century), affirms that Poles used to be called Vandals.[17]
Heimskringla, the Chronicle of Norwegian kings(12th century) mentions, that the Black Sea »divides three parts of the earth, from which is the eastern part called Asia, whereas the western part is by some called Europe, and by others Enea.«[18]
Miersuae Chronicon (13th century) equates Vandals with Slavs.[19]
Albert Crantz, historian (15th century), reports about Wandals or Wends, and says that they are Slavs, living as a single nation from Poland to Dalmatia. According to him, the mighty acts in France, Spain and Africa are ascribed to the Wends.[20]
Marcin Bielski (16th century) says that Wandals was once the name for Slavs.[21]
The Pomeranian chronicler Thomas Kantzow (1505-1542) writes that the »Slau(v)s and Wandals are the same thing / …/ just like the Germans are called differently – Germani, Teuthones, Alemanni.«: Original text: »Dan Slaui und Wandali ist ein Dinck / …/ gleich wie die Teutzschen werden oft on Unterschied geheissen Germani, Teuthones, Alemanni.«[22]
Christophorum Entzelt von Saluelt (16. century) records ancient populousness of the lands east from the Elbe (Laba) river with Wends. At the same time he equates Veneti and Sclavenes.[23]
Sebastian Münster, cartographer (16th century), mentions a once mighty nation on the East sea (Ostsee) named Vandals or Wends. He also reports on Wandals who settled regions in eastern Germany, where inhabitants are called Sclavs or Wends. Original text: »Mecklenburg-Pommern-Preussen: jtem Brandenburg und was dem Polenland zugelegen, alles Wandali geheißen und ihre Einwohner haben auch Sclaven oder Wenden geheißen.«[24]
Antol Vramec, chronicler (16th century), writes in his chronicle for the year 928 the following: The Heneti, who name themselves Sloveni, were at that time knocked down in Germany.[25]
Adam Bohorič, linguist (16th century), links Heneti, Vene(d)ti, Vinds, Vandals and Slavs together as a single nation.[26]
Mavro Orbin (16th century) numbers Veneti, Vends, Vandals, Illyrians, Sarmatians … among Slavs.[27]
The Chronicle of Brandenburg (16. century) emphasizes the mighty predecessors of Wends, the Vandals, who sacked Rome and Carthage, and mentions their king Genserich as the king of Vandals.[28]
Johann Weichard Baron von Valvasor, historian, geographer (1689), wrote: »Wends and Sclavenes are one folk, Wandals and Wends one and the same nation.« (»Wenden und Sclaven seynd ein Volk, Wandalen und Wenden einerley Nation.[29]
V. N. Tatiščev, ethnographer (17th -18th century), classifies the Heneti as Slavs, as well as the Vandalic or Vendenic state as the first known Slavic state.[30]
A. L. Schlözer, historian (18th century), defended his thesis about Slavs originating from Illyrians and the Veneti.[31]
Vasilij Trediakovski (18th century) classifies Dalmatians, Serbians, Bulgarians … among Vandals.[32]
Davorin Trstenjak (19th century) wrote about the ancient Adriatic Veneti, who belonged to a Vindish-Slavic family. He accented their affinity with the Aremoric (Brittany) and Baltic Veneti.[33]
In Helmolts Weltgeschichte (end of the 19th century) it is indicated, that the Veneti, Wends and Winds were actually ancestors of Slovenes, and that they used to settle the old roman provinces Vindelitia, Raetia, Noricum, Pannonia.[34]

HISTORICAL QUOTES
Homer (9th century B. C.) records in Iliad[1] the Veneti in Paphlagonia as Enetoi (the Greek did not know the letter v).
Herodotus, historian (5th century B. C.), writes about Illyrian Veneti, about Veneti living around the lower stream of the Danube, and finally about Veneti inhabiting the Northern Adriatic territory.[2]
Polibus (2th century B. C.) added to the description of events during the years 219 to 146 B. C., following: »The land to the Adriatic coast was mastered by another, very old folk, named Veneti … They speak a different language as the Celts, but what their habbits and their clothing is concearned, they differ from them only slightly /…/ Veneti and Gonomani were persuaded by Roman representatives, to join the Romans«.[3]
Demetrius of Scepsis, grammarian, archeologist (2nd century B. C.), mentions the capital of the Veneti (Enea) in Troas (Asia Minor).[4]
Strabo, historian, geographer (1st century B. C.), designates the (V)eneti in Paphlagonia as the major tribe moving towards Thrace (nowadays territory of Bulgaria) after the fall of Troy (Asia Minor).[5]
Julius Caesar, historian (1st century B. C.), reports about the Veneti living in Gaul (Brittany).[6]
Titus Livy, historian (1st century B. C.), describes how Veneti came up to the coasts of the (northern) Adriatic, also mentioning the river “Timava”, which flows through the duskiness of the Škocjan caves (Slovene Ti(e)ma means the darkness).[7]
Pliny the Elder (1st century B. C.) talks about an extensive land, named Eningia, where Sarmatians, Venedi, etc. lived. He also mentions the Venetulani in central Italy.[8]
Tacitus, historian (1st century C. E.), places Veneti on the border of Suebia together with Peucinians, Sarmatians and Fenns.[9]
Ptolemy, geographer (2nd century), mentions exceedingly large nations – the (O)venedi on the whole coastal region of the Venetic gulf (The Baltic sea).[10]
Emperor Julian (4th century) presents evidence of Veneti, who settled in the proximity of Aquilea (Italy).[11]
Jordanes, historian (6th century), notes a numerous nation of Veneti, populating the area between north of Dacia (now Romania) and up to the Visla delta (the Baltic sea), who call themselves Slavs and Ants. (»termini Venetorum qui et Sclavi dicuntur.«)[12]
In Vita s. Columbani[13] (7th century) (the Alpine) Veneti, who call themselves Slavs, are recorded.
In the Fredegarius Chronicle (7th century) we can read about the Slavs designated as Vinedi.[14]
Adam of Bremen, chronicler (11th century), mentions an extensive land Sclavania, settled by Winulians, who used to be called Vandals. The land could have been ten times bigger then Sachsen, especially if we include Bohemians (Czechs) and Polians, since they are not distinguishable from each other, nor by their appearance, or by their language.[15]
In Denmark (from latest 12th century and until the year 1972) the title “King of the Vends” (Latin Vandals) was used for enthroning Danish kings.
Helmold, historian (12th century), records a vast Slavic country, where the ancient Vandals are now named Wends or Winulians.[16]
Wincenty Kadłubek / Vincent of Cracow, historian (12th century), affirms that Poles used to be called Vandals.[17]
Heimskringla, the Chronicle of Norwegian kings(12th century) mentions, that the Black Sea »divides three parts of the earth, from which is the eastern part called Asia, whereas the western part is by some called Europe, and by others Enea.«[18]
Miersuae Chronicon (13th century) equates Vandals with Slavs.[19]
Albert Crantz, historian (15th century), reports about Wandals or Wends, and says that they are Slavs, living as a single nation from Poland to Dalmatia. According to him, the mighty acts in France, Spain and Africa are ascribed to the Wends.[20]
Marcin Bielski (16th century) says that Wandals was once the name for Slavs.[21]
The Pomeranian chronicler Thomas Kantzow (1505-1542) writes that the »Slau(v)s and Wandals are the same thing / …/ just like the Germans are called differently – Germani, Teuthones, Alemanni.«: Original text: »Dan Slaui und Wandali ist ein Dinck / …/ gleich wie die Teutzschen werden oft on Unterschied geheissen Germani, Teuthones, Alemanni.«[22]
Christophorum Entzelt von Saluelt (16. century) records ancient populousness of the lands east from the Elbe (Laba) river with Wends. At the same time he equates Veneti and Sclavenes.[23]
Sebastian Münster, cartographer (16th century), mentions a once mighty nation on the East sea (Ostsee) named Vandals or Wends. He also reports on Wandals who settled regions in eastern Germany, where inhabitants are called Sclavs or Wends. Original text: »Mecklenburg-Pommern-Preussen: jtem Brandenburg und was dem Polenland zugelegen, alles Wandali geheißen und ihre Einwohner haben auch Sclaven oder Wenden geheißen.«[24]
Antol Vramec, chronicler (16th century), writes in his chronicle for the year 928 the following: The Heneti, who name themselves Sloveni, were at that time knocked down in Germany.[25]
Adam Bohorič, linguist (16th century), links Heneti, Vene(d)ti, Vinds, Vandals and Slavs together as a single nation.[26]
Mavro Orbin (16th century) numbers Veneti, Vends, Vandals, Illyrians, Sarmatians … among Slavs.[27]
The Chronicle of Brandenburg (16. century) emphasizes the mighty predecessors of Wends, the Vandals, who sacked Rome and Carthage, and mentions their king Genserich as the king of Vandals.[28]
Johann Weichard Baron von Valvasor, historian, geographer (1689), wrote: »Wends and Sclavenes are one folk, Wandals and Wends one and the same nation.« (»Wenden und Sclaven seynd ein Volk, Wandalen und Wenden einerley Nation.[29]
V. N. Tatiščev, ethnographer (17th -18th century), classifies the Heneti as Slavs, as well as the Vandalic or Vendenic state as the first known Slavic state.[30]
A. L. Schlözer, historian (18th century), defended his thesis about Slavs originating from Illyrians and the Veneti.[31]
Vasilij Trediakovski (18th century) classifies Dalmatians, Serbians, Bulgarians … among Vandals.[32]
Davorin Trstenjak (19th century) wrote about the ancient Adriatic Veneti, who belonged to a Vindish-Slavic family. He accented their affinity with the Aremoric (Brittany) and Baltic Veneti.[33]
In Helmolts Weltgeschichte (end of the 19th century) it is indicated, that the Veneti, Wends and Winds were actually ancestors of Slovenes, and that they used to settle the old roman provinces Vindelitia, Raetia, Noricum, Pannonia.[34]

Mogoče pa so bili Veneti Iliri?

Mogoče pa so bili Veneti Iliri?

Oko: Kaj pa če so oboji eno te isto in oboji predniki Slovanov, le drugače poimenovani? Kaj če je pojem Iliri samo rimsko poimenovanje plemen na vzhodni obali Jadrana? Vprašanja so in zato se iščejo odgovori, nič ni ”zapečeno”, kljub nekim trditvam in ”dokazanim” resnicam.

Oko: Kaj pa če so oboji eno te isto in oboji predniki Slovanov, le drugače poimenovani? Kaj če je pojem Iliri samo rimsko poimenovanje plemen na vzhodni obali Jadrana? Vprašanja so in zato se iščejo odgovori, nič ni ”zapečeno”, kljub nekim trditvam in ”dokazanim” resnicam.

Hehe, prav zabavno je bilo brati prispevek g. Sadka, ki samo potrjuje moje mnenju o njegovi pomankljivi informiranosti na področju sodobnih zgodovinskih znanosti in sodobnih smernic “venetologije”.

Uredništvu vnaprej sporočam, da bodo dobili moj odziv prav kmalu, če si ga bodo upali objaviti pa je drugo vprašanje.

Meski, tile citati pa prav nič ne potrjujejo Sadkovega pisanja – le kako je to možno!???

Hehe, prav zabavno je bilo brati prispevek g. Sadka, ki samo potrjuje moje mnenju o njegovi pomankljivi informiranosti na področju sodobnih zgodovinskih znanosti in sodobnih smernic “venetologije”.

Uredništvu vnaprej sporočam, da bodo dobili moj odziv prav kmalu, če si ga bodo upali objaviti pa je drugo vprašanje.

Meski, tile citati pa prav nič ne potrjujejo Sadkovega pisanja – le kako je to možno!???

Pričakujem njegove dokaze proti.

Pričakujem njegove dokaze proti.

Rekel je, da se ne bo več javil. Pametno od njega!

Rekel je, da se ne bo več javil. Pametno od njega!

Hej, Veneti! Še malo pa mi boste ratali simpatični!?

Hej, Veneti! Še malo pa mi boste ratali simpatični!?

G. Sladek,moram vas pomilovati ,glede na svoje izvajanje,saj to je le nenehno ponavljanje iste zgodbe že skoraj 100 let.Venetologi niso bili zavrnjeni ampak ignorirani in šikanirani v svojem času iz političnih nagibov (G.Trstenjak, upam,da sem prav napisal).Dejstvo je ,da ko zahteva kdorkoli argumente za dokazovanje ti. uradne zgodovine, se vsi naši uradni razlagavci zgodovine umaknejo in užaljeno odidejo s prizorišča!Seveda se vrnejo na faksse,kjer še vedno in kar naprej drgnejo svoj prav in vlečejo mastne denarje.Vendar zgodovino je potrebno raziskati in jo napisati takšno,kot je v resnici bila!Zato se z vašo užaljeno politiko ne strinjam, predusem,pa ni z ničemer podkrepljena,Alternativa pa seveda išče in prav je tako!Preteklo je recimo 100 let in danes imajo veneti orožje, ki jih takrat niso imeli!

G. Sladek,moram vas pomilovati ,glede na svoje izvajanje,saj to je le nenehno ponavljanje iste zgodbe že skoraj 100 let.Venetologi niso bili zavrnjeni ampak ignorirani in šikanirani v svojem času iz političnih nagibov (G.Trstenjak, upam,da sem prav napisal).Dejstvo je ,da ko zahteva kdorkoli argumente za dokazovanje ti. uradne zgodovine, se vsi naši uradni razlagavci zgodovine umaknejo in užaljeno odidejo s prizorišča!Seveda se vrnejo na faksse,kjer še vedno in kar naprej drgnejo svoj prav in vlečejo mastne denarje.Vendar zgodovino je potrebno raziskati in jo napisati takšno,kot je v resnici bila!Zato se z vašo užaljeno politiko ne strinjam, predusem,pa ni z ničemer podkrepljena,Alternativa pa seveda išče in prav je tako!Preteklo je recimo 100 let in danes imajo veneti orožje, ki jih takrat niso imeli!